international fandom represent!

[noracharles]

When I first started out in online fandom, it was a bad idea to admit to not having English as your first language. People would ignore your fic, assuming it to be poorly written, or they would interpret what you wrote in very strange ways, thinking you couldn't mean to say what you actually wrote, since you wouldn't understand what it meant.

After some years fandom had become international enough that a lot of people who had been passing as first language English speakers came out, some subtly by using their .de or .se email addys and website URLs, some boldly stating their first language.

But that's only English language fandom. rodo has posted this interesting poll about different language fandoms, and the language background of fans. Please take part, no essay questions, simple check boxes/radio buttons.

I've been passive in non-English language fandoms, such as Danish, French, German, and Japanese movies and TV shows, followed canon for English language media translated or dubbed, and even read fic and meta in Danish (Norwegian, Swedish), German (Dutch, Afrikaans) and Spanish (French, Portuguese, Italian, Latin).

I could imagine writing fic in Danish for a specifically Danish fandom, but most of the stuff I've felt fannish about has been aimed very squarely at kids, and I would feel weird and out of place writing adult fic in for example Freddy og monstrene. Some has been aimed at adults, and has an international presence, such as Riget and Little Soldier, and while I could write in those fandoms in Danish, that would needlessly restrict my already very small audience.

As for Swedish language fandoms like Alla vi barn i Bullerbyn and Mumintrollen which I've read exclusively in Danish translation, I could write fic in Danish, and other Scandinavians could probably struggle their way through it, but honestly I think English is more likely to be understood and appreciated.

I can't imagine writing a fic in German or Spanish. The few German fandoms I'm into have an international presence, and I'm not into any Spanish language fandoms.

Okay, now I've gotten all interested in Lindgren fic - the fantasy worlds she's created in Mio, min Mio, Bröderna Lejonhjärta and Ronja Rövardotter lend themselves excellently to fic, and don't have the drawbacks of unfamiliarity with the setting like Bullerbyn, Emil, Madicken and Kalle Blomkvist would have for non-Swedes (and young Swedes, maybe).

Comments

[lakrids404.livejournal.com]

People would ignore your fic, assuming it to be poorly written, or they would interpret what you wrote in very strange ways, thinking you couldn't mean to say what you actually wrote, since you wouldn't understand what it meant. And in with some people fanfics, would they have a point ;)

Is there some sort of archive for danish fanfic, if those exist in larger number?.

It is a little sad that many people in Scandinavian, feels that it's hard, to read each others languages.

Astrid Lindgren was/is one of my favorite writer. It have been long time since I read her. So I am little anxious to reread her, and perhaps found that I don't like them so much, as I did when I was child.

I hope that your community will get popular. But I have gotten the notion that Astrid Lindgren is not so popular in the English speaking world.

[noracharles]

I'm not aware of any archives for Danish language fic. I know there is some on fanfiction.net, and ximeria recently told me about a site she stumbled on, and intended to mention on wikipedia. Then again, I'm not involved in any Danish fandoms, so I wouldn't know.

It is sad that we can't read each other's languages with ease in Scandinavia! I think it's a real shame that Scandinavian language studies have been deprioritized so much in recent years. I even heard on the news that Nordisk Ungdomsråd considered conducting their meetings in English. Now that's just wrong.

You don't need to worry about re-reading Astrid Lindgren, she really is that good ^_^
I really should see if I can find my old books, and buy and replace the ones I've lost.

I sincerely doubt my comm will become popular, but thank you for the good vibes. I don't think there're very many fans outside of the north and Germany, and those who are fans are probably caught up in adult oriented fandoms. Still, the Susan Cooper and Diana Wynne Jones fandoms have had some success, so why not try?

[lakrids404.livejournal.com]

I find it little to understand, when other people say, that they can't understand other Scandinavian languages. It's not harder than speaking with one with strong accent for me. People it's not hard! just make an effort.

I just know, that if the Astrid Lindgren community get large enough. Somebody will a write a Karl/Jonathan fic. Where Tengil is driven to insane jalousie over Jonathans love for Karl. ;)

[noracharles]

Quick! Bring me the incest repellant!

[noracharles]

Honestly, I'm considering writing Tvebak/Jonathan (Skorpan/Jonatan).

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

There's some Astrid Lindgren fic on slasher_swedes, though of course it's all slash. I don't know if advertising your comm there would do any good, though, considering that there hasn't been a post since 2006.

[noracharles]

Thank you so much!
I look forward to reading the fic, and I will link to it. Advertising might still do some good, even if the comm isn't active. A few people a year find my old snippet of Taxi fic through a mostly dead comm, so the readers just hungering for Lindgren fic may be out there, silently lurking ^_~

[oh--tsarevich.livejournal.com]

I'm here via metafandom and just thought I'd chime in - I'm from the Netherlands, and I don't think I know anyone who hasn't grown up with Astrid Lindgren books! She's very popular over here as well. Just thought I'd throw that out there :)

[noracharles]

That's good to know! There might be greater interest in a Lindgren comm than I had thought.

[skuf.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't you have to read e.g. Lindgren in English translation to be able to write in English? Not that the vocabulary (for lack of better word) of the English translations (are there "official" translations that everyone knows and loves) would necessarily be better than your vocabulary, but it might at least jolt someone used to those translations. Am I making sense?

Now I'm curious as to who's been passing as EL1 speakers - I'm not a writer, so it hasn't really been an issue for me, "admitting" I'm not a EL1 speaker. I also really haven't noticed other people doing it much - that is, hiding their ESL status. I think?

[winter]

(Here from metafandom)

Not necessarily. A year ago for Yuletide, I wrote a story based on a Russian novel I read in Polish - apparently I "nailed" it for the people who had read it in English :) Even in book-based fandoms, there is no firm rule that every story has to be the same tone and language as the original.

The only exception would be when the translator was truly free with the translation, say translating a regional dialect into an English regional dialect (this happens often in anime and manga - Valley Girl is a popular way to translate Kansai-ben). Still, I've noticed that these are usually mentioned on fansites ;)

[noracharles]

It can be a bit disconcerting seeing totally different character names in fic. I've noticed too in anime fandom that people usually mention it in the header if they're going with translated names.

Still, you never go wrong with using the original names and terms, I think.

I don't really mind people using their own style rather than copying the author's style, or using translated material as canon. Usually what matters is the characterization, and changing the atmosphere or genre is typical for fanfic in any case, so who's going to know or care?

The only exception I can think of is Jeeves and Wooster fandom, where the style is an important part of the characterization of Bertie.

I've also sometimes felt slightly annoyed at people using the American translations of Harry Potter as their canon source, especially if they mention the "sorcerer's stone". But I think that's more a matter of faulty Brit-picking for British character dialogue, than of the style and language of narration.

[noracharles]

When I googled Lindgren the other day, most of the hits were for Scandinavian and German sites. I don't think there are very many English language fans. The only character English speakers seem familiar with is Pippi. In any case I wouldn't try to emulate Lindgren's (translator's) style, I'm not that good!

As for who's been passing, this was mostly on mailing list fandoms back in the nineties and early 00s. I still remember that little jolt of surprise when people started oh-so-casually mentioning that they were not American. Some Canadians, Brits, Australians, New Zealanders and South Africans were even hazed on some of the mailing lists I was on, or were carelessly made to feel invisible.

I hesitate to name names, since people may have had other reasons for using a hotmail addy rather than a pop-mail with their country of origin than attempting to pass. But I do remember a hostile environment where people who wrote in the header that English was not their first language got no feedback or only mocking feedback, and people who didn't warn for it but had let it slip in conversation were patronized.

One episode I remember was not hostile and confrontational, just typical thoughtless "American media fandom is for Americans" mentality: a mailing list member was awake late and night and feeling bored, and to her surprise saw people posting on one of her lists. She remarked something like "I see I'm not the only insomniac here". I thought it was quite funny.

Other episodes have not been funny at all, with fans being hazed so badly they've vowed not to return, sometimes after getting EL1 beta readers and spending hours in libraries and search engines researching local geography and jumping through all manner of hoops to live up to the stated rules of conduct, only to realize that the cardinal rule was "no foreigners allowed".

[skuf.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no worries about not naming names - just because I'm curious, doesn't mean I'm entitled to know :o) ! I only joined fandom in 2003, anyways, so I have missed the period you talk about.

I still see US-centric mentality around sometimes - like not realizing the rest of the world may have different timezones, etc.

(And I myself am appallingly north-hemisphere-centric, and always start out announcing "summer hiatus" and such things to my fellow sv_ledger editors - 3 of them being southern hemisphere inhabitants - and have to correct myself, tsk-tsk.)

[noracharles]

LOL. I'm northern hemisphere centric too. But as long as we're aware of it, and do correct ourselves, I think we'll be all right.

[aquaeri.livejournal.com]

HejHej!

I was born in Denmark, but I moved to Australia about the time I might have started to think of myself as having a fandom or not. So I have all the advantages of full English fluency from an early age, but I did learn to read Danish first.

[noracharles]

Hej! Nice to meet you ^_^

[oneiriad.livejournal.com]

Here via meta_fandom

Hello fellow Dane.

I remember when I was just getting involved with online fandom and people kept being surprised when I mentioned being a non-native English speaker. On the other hand, I have actually written a couple of short fics in Danish, although they have had a very limited readership. Still, at the time, those fics felt like they had to be written in Danish, if that makes any sense? But mostly I haven't had any desire to engage with what little purely Danish fanfic sites I've spotted at times - they mostly seem to be teenagers and pre-teens writing Harry Potter Mary Sues and such.

and I would feel weird and out of place writing adult fic in for example Freddy og monstrene.
I'd read it. I used to love those books. :-)

[noracharles]

Hello!

Yes, that makes sense. I've sometimes felt a frustrating disconnect when writing English that I wouldn't have had writing Danish in those circumstances, and vice versa. I think the thing is that my languages are not symmetrical.

English is my language of scholarship and of TV fandom, Danish is my language of childhood and of the first voracious, infatuation with sci-fi book fandom. English is the language of family and near things, Danish is the language of childhood friends and names of things in the world, such as plants, animals and brands in the supermarket. German is the language of cartoons and cheesy old afternoon syndicated TV shows, pop music and advertisement jingles.

I recently read a book about world Englishes, which had some rather interesting articles. The English Languages by Tom McArthur. One of the points he made was that English is the second language of Denmark (and the rest of Scandinavia). It's obligatory in school, TV shows aren't dubbed and most foreign shows are in English, and advertisements are often in English. We routinely use it passively in our everyday lives, and many people use it actively at work and when traveling.

English is just as real and present in Denmark as it is in for example India. It is not a foreign language, but a second language, and we've developed our own little dialect with more or less code-mixing and hybridization depending on the level of formality. Think of The Julekalender. Many people speak "Danglish" fluently, and are completely unaware that the pronunciation and grammar (and even vocabulary) are not identical with either British or American standard.

I'm just fascinated by code-switching, and I try to pay attention to when either English or Danish "feels right".

As for Danish language fandom, that is the impression I've gotten too, and I think it's precisely due to the status of English in Denmark. Anyone not too young or stupid to write in English must write in Danish. The rest of us can choose. So the people who write fic in Danish are more likely to be young and/or stupid.

Thank you for being willing to read any hypothetical Freddy fic. One potential reader, yay!

[nebst.livejournal.com]

Here from metafandom. I've long wished there were more Astrid Lindgren fic, especially for Brothers Lionheart and Ronia the Robber's Daughter – like you say, those universes are so rich (and unexplored!) they'd really lend themselves to fic. (Only my first impulse would be to write in German because that's the language I've always read the books in. But then that would mean splintering an already tiny fandom even further. :/ Maybe I should try and read them in English at some point.)

[noracharles]

Hi there!
I wish you would write some Astrid Lindgren fic. I'd sure like to read it, and German is no problem. kattahj recced some fics to me, and I've posted links on the Astrid Lindgren community. They're in Swedish, and I'm afraid the lyrical qualities would be completely lost if you read them in a machine translation, but I still think it's useful to collect any and all fic no matter what the language, because someone is going to be able to read them, and maybe people will translate some of them. If you're interested, and with the permission of the authors, I could translate the Scandinavian fics.

[nebst.livejournal.com]

Hi! :) I've joined the community, and I'm totally in favour of posting in different languages! Especially if fic is tagged by language the way you're doing it.

I'd love translations, I really would, just because it makes me sad that there's Astrid Lindgren fic out there and I can't read it, haha. But don't feel obligated or anything, I'm already happy enough you made a community like that. ♥

[noracharles]

Good news, Kattahj already had an English version of her fic. I think you'll like it, I found it very atmospheric at least.

I'm glad you find the tags useful. I think I went a little overboard with them, and I might delete some of the less useful ones, but the language tags stay.

As for translations of the last two Swedish fics, if I hear back from the authors, I'll ask them if they'd like them translated, so everyone can enjoy them.

[probing-grays.livejournal.com]

Hi, here from metafandom.

English is my first language and I'm involved in a fandom from Japan. But recently I've found that the Spanish-speaking part of the fandom is far more active and friendlier than the English one. I remember being very self-conscious first posting in Spanish, because my experience so far has been that people can get incredibly judgmental. To my surprise, I felt that I was actually treated /nicer/ than I might have been if I had been from Chile. (The site was for Chilean fans.) It got me thinking that maybe there's a question of privilege involved. I know at least in the US there is a growing intolerance of people in the country who don't speak English; I think this attitude might carry over into fandom. What do you think?

[noracharles]

I think you are right, it is a question of privilege. Not necessarily American privilege, I just happened to be on several mailing lists for American/Canadian shows. I've encountered the same hostile "native English speakers only" attitude in the UK.

In Spain on the other hand, people are grateful and appreciative of anyone making the effort to speak to them in their own language, and can be hostile of foreigners unable or unwilling to. In Catalunya the people I spoke to were nice, but it freaked them out that I spoke castellano, and they tried to keep conversations short and to the point. In Euskadi, many Basques were outright hostile, ranting at me, even screaming me in the face.

So in an English speaking country, insisting on speaking on an equal level is challenging to their privilege, and in a marginalized and oppressed linguistic community they have no privilege and are fighting hard to achieve equality. In Latin America Spanish is less privileged than English, but in no way under threat, so no one wins anything by defending and demanding a high level of Spanish.

[probing-grays.livejournal.com]

Hmm. That's really interesting. I never thought of how oppressed linguistic groups would react. But I agree, native English speakers who are hostile to non-native speakers always struck me as lashing out from a position of privilege.

I mean, it might also vary by country, and not by region. Many of the people I spoke to who were Chilean on the board had very positive views of the US. There is an element of class, too; in Chile (I am told) a visit to Disneyland is seen as a marker of status. (Which is weird to me because I tend to associate Disneyland with the American lower middle class, but whatever.) If I had been on a board that was about a different country, I might have had to hide that I was an American.

In addition, it might be a class thing, given that the fandom is probably not accessible to a lot of Chileans who don't come from a privileged class background.

[noracharles]

The reasons why and the ways in which people defend their privilege are so complex. I do think it is a class thing, yes, but also that that's simplifying it a tiny bit.

In my experience the upper and upper middle classes like to see themselves as cosmopolitan, so it's necessary for their self-image to show solidarity with privileged foreigners, but it's often a thin veneer of solidarity and it certainly doesn't extend to unprivileged foreigners.

In Chile, which is richer than most of Latin America, Americans are privileged and American culture is admired and emulated so a certain degree - I'd be interested to learn more about that.

I can tell you what it's like in Denmark. Here Americans are privileged, and American culture is admired and emulated. However people are class-conscious, and want only the "good parts". Which are the "good parts" depends on which class and subculture the person identifies with. Also ignorance of American culture and social nuance can make distinguishing difficult for Danes.

Generally Disney is considered children's entertainment of good, but not the best, quality. In the typical Danish view, there *is* no American children's entertainment of the best quality, since Americans are thought to lack the necessary nuanced and sophisticated world view to produce it. And because all American culture by definition is unnuanced and unsophisticated, adults who gladly take their families to any and all amusement parks in Denmark would never admit in polite company to going to Euro Disney, which is the closest Disney amusement park. Going to Disney Land or Disney World is okay, as long as you make it clear that it's for the kids, not the adults and it's so you can experience local culture, since Disney is oh-so-typical and representative of America.

Yes, listening to this tiresome, unnuanced and unsophisticated stereo-typical view of America gets very old very fast >_<
But I'll take it over the total unwillingness to deal with Americans, other than to yell "Yankee go home!", which I've encountered in some places.

[eska-rina.livejournal.com]

By "Freddy og monstrene" you're talking about Jürgensen's books, right? 'Cause I would loooove a fandom based on those books! :D

Reading the comments to this post, I've noticed that some mention that they find it hard to read other Scandinavian languages; I've never gotten that - I've never found that particulary hard. But I have to really concetrate when having a longer conversation in, eh, "Scandinavian" though :/

I'm not active in any non-English fandoms, though, and I can't even really claim I'm a part of that anymore.
So I have no idea about how the Danish fandom is :/

[noracharles]

Yes, Jürgensen! ^_^

I don't understand what is supposedly so difficult about it either, but apparently it is. Maybe people don't like not understanding every single word outside of context?

[skvidd.livejournal.com]

To start of I should say I’m Norwegian, but qualify as a bi-lingual because my father is Irish.

When it concerns Astrid Lindgren (who is an absolute champion in Norway as well) fanfiction, there are obvious limits. She is simply not as well known in the rest of the world as she is in Scandinavia. Fanfiction is not as wildly explored here as it is elsewhere in the world so her stories do not gain as much attention.

When it comes to translation and language of fanfiction in general, I think it should be in the language most wildly appreciated by readers. The Harry Potter books where the catalyst for my will to learn English properly and fanfiction has kept the urge to read and improve alive long after the books have finished. I chose what stories I want to read, and I won’t read fanfiction with basic syntax faults or simple misspellings. These faults may occur because they are written by a 14 year old or because the writer is foreign, but they should not be read if the quality is low regardless.

[noracharles]

That is a dilemma. I tend to agree with you, writing in a language widely read would be best, but in certain circumstances writing your first language is the only adequate option.

After googling Astrid Lindgren and getting some response from fans, I think all things being equal that writing Lindgren fic in English would be the best option. There are many German and Dutch Lindgren fans who can't read any Scandinavian languages.

I'm generally confident about writing in English, but certain topics just seem... odd, or off in English. I have an idea for a fic, which I don't know if I'll ever write, using Norse folklore, and Tolkien not-withstanding, writing about that in English would be uncomfortable for me.