Writing fic in my native language.

[noracharles]

I wouldn't write a fic about an English language canon in Danish. I used to read a lot of books in translation before it was possible to buy books online, and the stilted Danish of the translations never gave me the same intimate feeling as reading a book in its original language can.

I think the biggest advantage for me to writing in Danish would be the registers I have in that language. I speak English in very specific circumstances: At home I speak about family stuff with my family, but we code switch and mix and match a lot, and our private language would be difficult to understand for others as well as completely out of character for any canon character I can think of.

And then I write more or less formal academic English for school, and a weird mixture of more or less formal academic English and fandom dialect on LJ/DW, and again, I don't think that suits any of the canon characters I would like to write about. I do work hard not to write fic in fandom dialect, because it grates on me when I read it, but it's the only English casual dialect I'm fluent in :-|

I once made up a long story in my head about characters from a Danish movie, but I didn't bother writing it down. I couldn't imagine who would read it. The movie was Lille Soldat, a fantastic movie which I highly recommend.

It was not the point of the movie, but one of the things I particularly appreciated was the code switching: the main characters are Kimmie from Nigeria, who only speaks very little Danish and does not like to talk about emotional or important things in Danish, and Lotte who has English as a foreign language/working language. She's used to using English for important subjects that you have to get right, being an Iraq vet, and also has a broad knowledge of colloquial English from popular culture, but her English is stilted and dry compared to the emotional complexity she can express in Danish.

And as I was making up the story about those characters, it felt so good to be able to use that entire range that combining English and Danish gives me, and the control over nuance that code switching gives me, and the power to use dialog for characterization, which I normally suck at.

But then I remembered bringing friends to my parents' house, and the look they get on their face when we suddenly switch to English, and the way they also switch to English and it sounds so weird and kind of grating to me. They don't sound like themselves at all, because they're suddenly using a much more formal register and they have less nuance and humor in what they're saying.

And I thought to myself, no one could read that fic. No one in fandom understands my native language. (Except possibly aquaeri?)

Comments

[verasteine]

I get this completely. Not having English as your first language can make fandom a whole different world, but in turn, I learned my writing in English, and so writing in my native Dutch never expresses wholly what I want to say (unless the characters are Dutch.) English is like this writing language to me, this other option in my head. I can't really write well in Dutch at all, at least not fiction. It wouldn't flow.

[noracharles]

I think that you probably could write in Dutch, but you'd have to work at it harder, because you've never developed your creative writing in that language, and maybe you're like me and don't even like reading Dutch?

Not that I don't like reading Dutch, because actually I think it's an incredibly charming language; I mean, I strongly dislike literary Danish unless it's an exceptional author. I read it so rarely that when I do it looks fake to me, and I particularly hate mediocre translations that are too colored by the original language, and how that weird style influences the works of writers who write in Danish.

Sometimes I toy with the thought of writing some YA fiction in Danish and trying to get it published, and then I wonder if my rejection of all anglicisms and stilted language would be a plus or would be too weird for the conservative book market here. Hopefully I'll find out some day :-)

[verasteine]

I'm not fond of reading Dutch; I'm also not fond of what passes for good literature here. I had to read lots of it in high school, and mostly despised it. I prefer reading in English because those stories are different.

And hang on, you read Dutch? How did you wind up knowing Dutch, Danish, and English?

I think it's awesome you wanna be published; I don't have that courage (yet). And you know, you can always try. You never know what might happen!

[noracharles]

Ugh, I know what you mean about "what passes for good literature". That's what it's like to live in a country where only a few million people speak the language. The bar is set so much lower for the few professional authors there are.

Haha, I read Dutch but I don't understand Dutch. It's just that Dutch is so interesting and beautiful, and I think it's fun to try to decipher. I'd love to learn it some day.

I don't have the courage to try to write original fic and send it in yet either, but I figure I'll soon have time on my hands, so why not go for it :-)

[verasteine]

I have to ask, how do you read Dutch without understanding it? I suppose it's sort of like how I read French; I understand one word in a hundred :). I had no idea Dutch was so interesting... They tell me it's a hard language to learn, but if you know Danish, it might not be so difficult!

I wholly encourage you to write and send in fiction! I think it'd be awesome.

[noracharles]

I don't go to the library and try to read a whole book in Dutch, if that's what you're imagining :-D

But when I come across Dutch on my reading list or on the labels of stuff I look at in stores or wherever I happen to see it, I enjoy reading it. If I'm watching tv and come across a show in Dutch I also sometimes watch it just for the pleasure of listening to the language, even if I don't care what the show is about.

Dutch is similar to the other Germanic languages, so a lot of the words are the same. I'm sure I misunderstand quite a bit, because I have to fill in the gaps using my imagination, and words with the same root can have developed rather different meanings in the different languages. But it's fun :-)

Have you seen the clip of Eddie Izzard buying a brown cow in Friesland?

[lakrids404]

Hey still here!
:)

[noracharles]

But your native language is not Danglish. I don't know if I can explain it to you, because I don't know what your language background is.

Do you watch X Factor? Have you noticed how some of the contestants can sing in English and some of them really, really can't? I don't mean their pronunciation, because that's pretty good. And when they're singing a favorite song they've heard many times before, they sometimes manage to mimic the interpretation of the original artist pretty well.

It's just that English is a foreign language to most Danes, and they may know the literal meaning of lots of words, but there's no nuance or subtlety or emotional connection.

You read English every day, so I know your vocabulary is good. But are you familiar with code switching? If you aren't, reading a fic I wrote drawing on that would be like listening to a tv show from another room. You could probably explain to me what was going on, but you would have missed a lot of context.

[lakrids404]

I reread your post, and I can see that I clearly misread what you said, so much for my English reading skill. You are talking about your experience as a "tosproget",and yes I would probably miss subtle nuances in spoken Eglish.

But I am not so sure, that I could not grasp as much context, as an average native English speaker, as I have probably read more books in English, than the average English person have (yes I am aware of the irony, when I started my post with saying I misread your post). I could of course miss some cultural context, that a native speaker would see. But that could also happen, to native English speakers from different countries. I don't know if it's a good example, but I remember reading some fanish discussions of BBC's Merlin, where one person had found it interesting, that the american viewers didn't talk about, the different social classes, and how they influenced the charterers action.

[noracharles]

You're right about that. And that's a good example, with the Merlin fandom. I've noticed that too: Only the British fans seem to ever comment on the class thing. I especially noticed if after the episode with the troll who marries Uther, because I found the use of dialect offensive, and I would normally expect my reading list to be all over that.

But understanding something because you think carefully about it is not the same as understanding something on a gut level. You couldn't have known, because I didn't link, but the above post was written in reaction to this post by lian where she encourages everyone to try to write fic in their native language because they just might feel more of an emotional connection and be able to express things with greater emotional depth. I meant to reply to her post, but then I felt my comment had moved too far off topic so I posted it here instead.

So anyway, my extremely well-hidden point was that there might very well be an audience capable of reading in a mixture of Danish and English, but that emotional oomph that writing in Danglish would give me would not translate to the readers, so I might as well write purely in English or purely in Danish.

[lakrids404]

I do get what you are saying....I think.

And I wonder, if you see the same, as when i look at the color green.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

I find this very interesting. Disclosure:I'm basically English monolingual, but my English is a melange of different kinds, American, BBC, high and low brow, and littered with pilfered vocabulary. The normal prescription for writing is to read a lot, and that this builds a buffer to push your writing through. However. English has a Huge body to select from, deep and wide. I don't know how one improves writing in a language with (from your description) few suitable models. I suppose you might try 'exercises' where you set a desired effect and try different approaches.

Perhaps trying to write the Danish you use when the audience doesn't know English?

[noracharles]

My English is like that too. On the internet, in books, movies, tv shows, radio, music... it's all different kinds of English I listen to and read. If I lived in an English speaking community that wouldn't matter, but the people I speak English with day to day also have all different Englishes.

I could read a lot, sure. I do think I ought to read more books, because I've gotten out of the habit. But written English is not like spoken English. It might be all right for narration, but it's wrong for dialog.

I do actually like to challenge myself exactly like that :-)

Perhaps trying to write the Danish you use when the audience doesn't know English?

I don't understand what you mean. For improving my Danish?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Well, you've seen how my English has peculiarities despite being in an English-speaking environment. But I do have a sense of where Ray would balk at Saying even though he Understands. It might not be quite right, since I'm from lower in the state, and the white ethnics of my childhood were different.

But, writers do write dialog, so you read a lot of the ones that Get it Well. And, there is American-pickers. ;) I will admit I read mostly out of time-period. Science-fiction is good that way, so that if characters have self-consistent Voice, whether it's pitch-perfect Jersey-shore is immaterial. (I use this to retcon Scotty's brogue. Since there are more opinions than there are Scotsmen, why shouldn't there be accents changing over time?)

As to writing in Danish, well, until someone writes It, no one can read a better example. Once upon a time, English was much rougher. Then Shakespeare and his contemporaries infused it and History did patently ridiculous things. Though,I really should locate some good examples of World English literature. There are plenty of native speakers of Englishes way different from my own.

[noracharles]

Oh, I do pick up lots of written approximations of spoken language, but the problem is that if my dialog is based on an approximation rather than the real thing, then it's bound to be even more removed from reality.

Of course I don't care very much, because I have absolutely no ear for languages and dialog has to be really shockingly wrong before I even notice. It's one of those things I try to get right for the sake of potential readers, rather than for my own sake.

And as you say, in science fiction it doesn't matter as long as the characters' voices are consistent.

When it comes to writing original fic, be it in Danish or English, I'm definitely going to write it in my own voice. There used to be some really excellent Danish writers, and some day when I have time I'd like to take a good, close look at their stuff to figure out what it is I like about it so much, but I'm not going to try to emulate anyone's style or fit into some pigeonhole for the convenience of the publishers. If I can't get published I might just make my own publishing house and use my contacts in the book industry to sell my stuff.

[aquaeri]

I'd certainly be willing to try reading Danglish! I think my Danish is a little weak, childish, because I haven't consumed much Danish media since I was 12. And I think I've even noticed that awkwardness you're describing, because when I do read Danish, I like to go back to older stuff, 1970 or older - I think it's thereabouts that English really starts to affect Danish. Some of the modern stuff is really badly written, and people are using English words when even I can remember the Danish word!

But I think you'd have more talk about with my mother - I can remember, after we'd lived in Australia some years and even her and my dad's Danish had English in it (possibly after my brother and sister had given up speaking Danish altogether, they are younger than I am) - we saw some Shakespeare on TV, and it was like a lightbulb went off over her head. She'd studied Shakespeare in Danish translation at school, had been unimpressed, but she was now so comfortable in English she was 'getting it' in a way that hadn't been possible for her before.

I will say some English translations of Danish stuff are really poor too - when Frøken Smilla was big, even I read the English because that's what we could get hold of in Australia, and I so wanted to read the Danish instead because I could tell certain awkwardnesses would have been fine in Danish and so I was left wondering what else I might be missing.

In fact the only thing that ever satisfied me was Out of Africa/Afrikanske Farm, because Blixen wrote both versions herself. There was a way both versions were the same I've never experienced with anything else.

[noracharles]

That's interesting about your Danish. I sometimes try to imagine what would have happened to my English if it had been as little used in Denmark as other foreign languages are. I think it would just have atrophied.

Hmm, yes, I think you're right about the 1970s. That's my feeling as well. It doesn't bother me with an author like Dennis Jürgensen because his books are set in a youth culture with strong American cultural influences, but it sticks out like a sore thumb to me when it's supposed to be high brow literature.

That sounds like a great experience your mother had with Shakespeare. I've had this discussion with other people, and most of them think that you'll get more out of a work of literature in translation than by reading the original unless you're fluent in the original language. But if you take the time to learn a new language and practice, then you might not get much out of the first few books you read, but it's an investment in the future. And it's worth it, because most translations aren't of great artistic value.

I agree so much about Frk. Smilla and Out of Africa. I'd like to read Christian Mørk's books sometime, because he's rewritten them in Danish himself, rather than let anyone translate them. I've never come across any English translation of a Danish work that I liked. It's especially disappointing with an author like H.C. Andersen. I really have to wonder what English speakers see in him, because his fairy tales aren't half as funny in English as they are in Danish.

[aquaeri]

I'm mainly nodding and agreeing. The translation thing, I think it depends a bit on what it is that's being translated. Poetry in my experience (or poetry that I consider good...) you have to read in the original, it is just completely untranslatable. I managed to study enough Latin at school our teacher had us read a bit of original poetry and then compare/contrast translations (in English) and the translations mainly made me more impressed with the original. Other texts can have different purposes that make them more translatable, depending on what they're doing. But I notice even with appliance instructions that are multilingual - sometimes there's different cultural context between the English and Danish (or particularly Swedish) instructions!

[noracharles]

I think that appliance manufacturers/importers have the impression that instructions are so straight forward and that anyone who speaks two languages is also able to translate, and therefore use machine translations or amateur translators too often. Those translations are often a source of great entertainment for me :-)

It's nice when you can tell that each text really has been properly translated, like when there's a different cultural context.