International fandom, again.
Dec. 16th, 2009 01:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
noracharlesSomeone uses a common figure of speech, referring to corporate headquarters by the name of the city the HQ is in, while criticizing a recent management decision.
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-20 08:58 am (UTC)On the other hand, you and I are in the anglophone blogosphere. Why should we assume that our own experiences and points of view are not relevant to discuss in English? Sure, we could talk about it in German, but that would perforce keep it on the kindergarten level, and I am personally quite interested in exchanging experiences with other Europeans. I do read some new feminist thought from other countries, but only filtered through newspapers, and only in connection with the major issue of the day, such as surrogacy, religiously and/or culturally mandated gendered dress, paternity leave (argh, is there no gender-neutral inclusive term for that in English?) and so on.
A new to me blog I am enjoying for its European perspective:
A company blog,
(And it's not even Friday!)
Sadly, I'm woefully ignorant about where online the Danish feminist discussion is taking place. I've found some message board forums that had very low traffic, very poor and to me barely accessible formatting, or a tradition for hard to decipher text speak. Recs are very welcome. Also Swedish, Norwegian (bokmål), German and Spanish (castellano) language recs.
Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-20 10:54 am (UTC)The term you're searching for in English English is "parental leave".
Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-20 02:37 pm (UTC)Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-22 07:59 pm (UTC)Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-22 08:28 pm (UTC)Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2009-12-25 10:45 am (UTC)Oh yeah, I've seen enough of those that I become twitchy whenever Germany comes up in Anglo feminism. God only knows how women from countries that generally get the "look how horrible life is for women here!" treatment feel.
My main issue at the moment is that I'm seriously out of touch with both feminism in Germany and in the UK where I live (English feminist discussion often not only being very Anglo but very US-centric), so I don't really know what the issues *are* until I stumble across them in a German blog and go "wait a moment here!" (e.g. there was apparently a big blow-up about the Pirate Party vs feminism, which I would dearly like to have known of before I voted for them damnit). And the issues that affect me personally are all tangled up in disability and asexuality - hooray for intersectionality, hooray - which are both usually so little discussed especially in combination that I'm still breaking myself of the "but all that doesn't matter because I'm not a /normal/ woman" mindset. :(
I must admit, I find it wonderful to read not only about various politics and laws and suchlike that, uh, actually affect me, but also see feminism put in the context of where I come from and the history that is important to me and my family. I'm only now realising how alienating I found it to read about the history of feminism and have it be solely the history of US-feminism - seeing a history of feminism that meshes with things like the aftereffects of WWII on Germany, the '68 student revolution, terrorism by the radical left (RAF and all that), the Berlin Wall and the like is- is- wow. I feel as if I've suddenly gained roots again!
Re: German feminist blogs - I am also pretty ignorant, and have NO IDEA how good the ones I've found are on race, trans* issues, sexuality, asexuality, disability, class, etc. I know of Mädchenblog and Mädchenmannschaft, which also has a very useful feminist dictionary which comes in handy if you're coming at feminist discussion via English. It gave me a whole new appreciation for people who complain that feminist discourse is all academic and jargon-y when I realised that I had no idea how to express many of the ideas I was used to in German! I Heart Digital Life and Genderblog I've also seen linked. Blogrolls exist although they're often mixed English/German - indeed, the old phenomenon exists: the German feministosphere seems *very* up-to-date with what's going on in the English one, links and discusses English posts, has various bits of vocabulary lifted from English, even feminist memes, and the English one doesn't seem to realise the German one exists. Where do we know this pattern from? Right, everywhere. :D
ETA: I fail at HTML.
Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2010-01-01 12:56 pm (UTC)It's the same phenomenon: Lots of English jargon, and discussion of themes from the anglo blogosphere. I also stumbled over some old school second wave feminism dictating how to be a "real woman" >_< But that's always the danger when you find blogs yourself, instead of going by recs.
I see what you mean about the alienating effect of following all the US centric discussions, but I hadn't been aware of the insulating effect. Racism in the US is sort of theoretical to me. I agree that it's a huge problem, and it always hurts me when someone I know on the internet shares stories about the institutional racism they've fought against and the personal harassment. But when it comes to racism in Denmark, it's very real to me, and it makes me angry with rage.
About asexuality, I wanted to thank you. You (and a few others) have made a big difference to me personally by discussing asexuality as a sexual orientation rather than a dysfunction on ffr. I've struggled a lot with which lens to view my own sexuality through, because while the queer community is better than the straight norm at defining and nuancing sexuality, there seems to be a strong emphasis on having sexual intercourse as some sort of proof of queerness, especially for bisexuals. Even just the word "bisexual" >_< Why can't we call it "biphile"?
Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2010-01-04 07:59 pm (UTC)I really agree with you about the insulating effect. In some sense, participating in English-speaking social justice discussions is like doing it with training wheels - it's all somehow one step removed. The laws don't affect you, the murders are all an ocean away and if someone starts calling out privilege or pointing out -isms you can go "but that's over /there/, my home is shiny and perfect and Not Like That" (not that this is a /good thing/ but it's a dynamic I've observed.) I have to fight against MUCH more defensiveness when people start calling out, say, racism in Germany - partially because I'm hypersensitive to the paternalistic thing, but partially because it's about my home and a lot of anti-racist discussions are not. And once you get past the defensiveness, I also get a lot angrier about it - because, again, part of me thinks my home ought to be better than that!
And re: asexuality - wow, thank you, that's great to hear! One of the really big reasons I'm so vocal about asexuality is because I want to help other unrealised asexuals/grey-as/demisexuals/other people with low sex drive or who feel alienated by our hypersexed society to realise that alternatives exist, asexuality is a valid orientations, sex doesn't *have* to be that important. I went through a lot of unpleasantness as a teen because of my orientation and how no one would tell me it was a valid way to be, actually wound up inventing the word "asexual" on my own and only learned that there were others that identified that way when I was already in my twenties, so I really try to do my small part in ensuring there will be less experiences like mine. It's amazing to hear I'm having an effect!
And the whole /sexual/ thing drives me up the effing wall. The asexual community distinguishes between romantic and sexual orientation, so e.g. an asexual who is romantically attracted to men and women will often id as biromantic asexual or bi-asexual. I like this distinction! It is handy! Of course, outside our tiny community nobody does this. And, you know, the very fact that so many of us are iding as asexual *over* the romantic orientation really says something about how sex, wanting sex and having sex are made fundamental parts of your average sexual orientation - if this weren't the case I'd probably be identifying as a maybe-lesbian instead of asexual first and foremost and yes also queer but distinctly dubious about ever actually being part of the queer community because I've been discounted *so* often that I get defensive whenever I hear the word "LGBT". And, gah, I'm not making sense anymore but, you know, if the L, G and B communities want to get rid of the stereotype that their orientations are only about sex it would be nice if they'd ACT that way.
...my bitterness wrt the LGBT movement, let me show you it. *sigh*
Re: Euro and international feminist recs
Date: 2010-01-04 09:54 pm (UTC)But right now I am exhausted from dealing with the yuletide move debate and resulting ableism, and I need a non-thinking, not-feeling-too-much break. Maybe some good fic :-)