International fandom, again.
Dec. 16th, 2009 01:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
noracharlesSomeone uses a common figure of speech, referring to corporate headquarters by the name of the city the HQ is in, while criticizing a recent management decision.
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-19 04:15 pm (UTC)I think what brings your point home is this: Europeans don't think white ethnic groups look alike.
OK, I get this, and now I see how the statement in your OP can be insulting. USians do notice the difference between white ethnic groups too (and black ethnic groups, for that matter); it's human nature to notice such differences. They just don't matter here as much as skin color, for most interactions that involve privilege. To apply US-centric language to a world where nuance matters is definitely a privilege thing, not to mention ignorance. Thanks for clarifying that.
That said, though... it cannot be denied that there is privilege in coming from lighter-skinned ethnic groups in most of Europe. Seen and experienced that for myself, particularly in southern Italy (Sicily). So what does one call that, if not white privilege? I've heard some people use "light skin privilege", but I always find that confusing because it's also used to refer to intra-PoC issues of colorism.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-19 06:08 pm (UTC)I was trying to explain how and why I saw the concept as North America centric, and you got that perfectly, not trying to pretend like skin color is irrelevant in Europe.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-12-20 03:16 am (UTC)As another European (German), I tend to think that white privilege does exist but it's very very strongly intertangled with ethnicity-based, culture-based and nationality-based prejudice. If you look at how a Pole, an African American, a Turkish person or a German adopted from Korea are treated in Germany, it's going to be massively different for all of them depending on situation and how the interplay between the various elements works out. And then there are things like the incredible prejudice and discrimination towards the Roma and other travelling people and the dreadful treatment they tend to be subjected to - and skin-colour wise they're pretty much white.
Which is to say, I think ethnicity, nationality and culture often gets treated as more important than skin colour over here, and it can be frustrating when it seems as though someone coming from an outside pov wants to dismiss the first three entirely.
[Note: As a white ethnically/nationally/culturally western German woman I'm pretty privileged wrt all of these - I live in the UK and worry about people reacting badly because I'm German, but so far I haven't had any problems - so that should probably be taken into consideration.]
I should add that I have a tough time differentiating between white ethnic groups, *but* I suspect that's mainly because I'm autistic and may have a mild degree of face-blindness on top too. But even with that, ethnicity = big deal.