On the accessibility of fandom fests

[noracharles]

This is a post about the accessibility of fandom fests for people with social anxieties.

October 24th, 2009: kaz on access_fandom: Challenges, challenges, challenges
It's a great post, go read :-)

I would like in particular to quote this:

If you have written anything of the "we will be kind of unhappy if you drop out without a good reason >(" variety, in fact if you haven't explicitly made it clear that dropping out is acceptable, I have probably worked myself up into such a state about this that I cannot, actually, think about the challenge without starting to cry. - kaz

because it is relevant to what I have to say.

Yuletide is moving to a new archive, because the old archive is kaput. Some members for a variety of personal reasons want to withdraw their fics. The move of old fics hasn't even started yet, but speculation and rumors about how it would be handled started as soon as the move was announced.

January 4th 2010: astolat mod of yuletide: About the AO3 and the yuletide move

If you want more details about the move, there will be a detailed explanation including optional tech geekery on the yuletide_admin livejournal at least a week before we actually run the import (the move was delayed until after Yuletide so we could do this in a more sane way), and all authors will be notified at all of the email addresses on their yuletide story or stories, and will have the option to claim, orphan, or delete your work. (I'll field questions on that post, but please hold 'em until then!) - astolat

I like how she makes her position clear, that the move is necessary, but does not lay on the guilt. I have not followed the communications from yuletide regarding the move very closely, because I am not a member, but I have no objections to any of the official communications I have seen. On the contrary, I am pleasantly surprised.

The problem is that supporters of yuletide have taken it upon themselves to wage a campaign of social pressure on members not to remove any fics from the archive.

Please note: This is my, possibly inaccurate, summary. I do not speak for anyone but myself. Please go to the source to form your own impression of what people are really saying.

January 2nd, 2010: merricatk: Ravings of an emotionally unstable fan. Warning, ableist content in comments, may be triggering.

merricatk provides us with some background for context: She is a member of yuletide, and wishes to withdraw her fic or at least be better informed about her privacy options. She has a history of not functioning well in fandom social circles, and has accepted that certain things she just can't take part in. For her own health and well-being, she has decided to withdraw her fic from public archives and repost it in her own journal.

Having heard the rumor of yuletide moving, she went looking for information, and supporters of yuletide were calling members wishing to withdraw names. (merricatk seems to think they are official representatives of yuletide, but from what I have seen that is not the case.)

I wish they weren't using the word orphan. It's too poetic, it puts to sharp a point on the abandonment, it makes me feel terrible. I have abandonment issues. Call me a thief for taking my story back and I can deal with it. Say I'm making my story an orphan, I'll cry.

[...]

I'm perfectly aware that my feelings--and all this is nothing but my feelings--are indefensible. But I don't like it when the powerful people come and tell me how unreasonable I am not to want to do things their way. Not ask, just tell.

I can live with being disliked, considered a screwball, or an angry, shitty, classless, selfish jerkass, and I can live with people believing the lie that I'm doing this because I hate OTW and/or A3O. I can live with the whole rest of the world considering me irrational.

January 3rd, 2010: fandom_wank: Beat your breasts, maidens, and rend your tunics. Warning, ableist content in post and comments, may be triggering.
fandom_wank users discuss the yuletide archive move debate, including merricatk's post.

There are many very funny snarky comments, but there are also a few opinions I find objectionable:

• That merricatk does not have the right to talk about her anxiety, because the pain she feels is lesser than the pain other people could have potentially felt had other authors agreed with merricatk in the warnings debate some months ago that writing warnings on all their fic was an insurmountable task and a barrier to future writing inspiration and motivation and had they furthermore disagreed with merricatk that it was appropriate to take other measures, such as removing their fic from public archives. Or as they say: merricatk does not feel empathy, so deserves no empathy.



• That merricatk does not have the right to talk about her anxiety, because her feelings are stupid and inconvenient.

Dear reader, should merricatk's opinions on anything influence your opinion on whether supporters of a fest can create an atmosphere which excludes people with social anxieties from taking part in fests?

And, dear reader, if accessibility is only for the good people with disabilities, and merricatk is a bad person with a disability, does the fact that she used herself as an example of a fan with social anxiety crying over a fest mean that you should not care about the other fans with social anxiety

• possibly being triggered by the atmosphere of social pressure surrounding the yuletide move
• possibly being scared away from seeking information from the actual official representatives of the fest
• and possibly being scared away from ever participating in a fandom fest in the future?

How can we do better?

I think the mods could not have anticipated the way the discussion flared up. I knew from casually looking through the yuletide comm that information about the move was forthcoming, and that the mods were very busy with yuletide 2009 which has only just finished. And I think astolat reacted very quickly, pouring oil on the troubled waters and making it clear that it would be possible to withdraw. I do not blame the yuletide mods in any way.

Future mods of fests could consider having an official policy of asking supporters not to answer member questions, except to refer confused members to the rules or FAQ. This might cut down on supporters going against a fest's policy of non-confrontation and low guilt and anxiety. Enforcing rules without causing anxiety attacks is a very tricky matter, and random supporters should not be encouraged to enforce rules through social pressure.

Supporters of fests, who are understandably eager to have everyone follow the rules, could consider whether referring the confused to the rules or FAQ, or letting them know that an official announcement will be forthcoming wouldn't be the most constructive thing to do.

I can't blame anyone for snarking in a comm like fandom_wank, because it is not a safe space, and it has rules against confronting the people under discussion. But I think that people who think that an appropriate response to "You are frightening me" is more confrontation, or pointing and laughing, need to examine their ableist privilege.

---

This is a post about the accessibility of fandom fests for people with social anxieties.

It is not a post about whether there are rules about withdrawing fic from yuletide, whether the rules were made clear when people signed up, and whether the archive move releases users from their promise to leave the fic in the archive.

It is not a post about whether social anxiety is real, and whether social pressure including guilt and name calling can trigger anxiety attacks.

It is not a post about the warnings debate, and merricatk or noracharles' role in the debate.

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Comments

[laughingrat]

if accessibility is only for the good people with disabilities, and merricatk is a bad person with a disability

That was a thread that had been bugging me from when we chatted about this earlier--there was something that had been niggling at me about the response to Merricatk's post that you'd told me about, and then I realized: it's that people only want to make accommodation that don't inconvenience them very much.

I haven't gotten to read all the background yet, and plus I'm not sure that what I'm thinking right now is A: informed, or B: Finished. There's something in this about untenable positions, and the right for groups to set boundaries, and the right of people to ask for accommodations...and then I'm also reminded of the fact that sometimes there are behaviors which someone can't help, but which are incompatible with the needs of the many. These are all real things which can be mutually exclusive. Where that leaves anyone in this situation, I don't know. I should go read more before I say anything else, and plus this was probably too jumbled-up anyhow.

[noracharles]

It's a thorny issue. I don't think that all activities must perforce be accessible to everyone. For example, I don't object to my friends going on the scary rides without me when we go to the amusement park, just as long as we all do something fun together.

The problem I see here is that the yuletide people are making an effort not to cause anxiety, but supporters of yuletide are undercutting that effort. I think we can learn a lesson from that.

[aquaeri]

I'm not involved in yuletide fic or any other fic'ing, but I certainly have issues around social pressure to conform, to play along, which would have been set off by this situation. And the fact that I've seen parts of fandom behave in similar ways in other situations in the past is part of why I don't think of myself as fully part of fandom and am reluctant to participate in some places.

[noracharles]

You're not the first person to tell me this.

I'm the typical lurker on the fringes of things, and the only reason I've been so relatively active in the last year is because I feel that dw has allowed me to carve out my own little niche, with people who interest and entertain me, but don't scare me.

I think that I am part of fandom. I think that the vast majority of Western media fanfic fans, which is my area of fandom, are lurkers. Those cliquish packs of fangirls terrify me, with all their written and unwritten rules for how to interact with each other, how to indicate in status and out status, how to enforce their social norms - but my friends probably look like a scary clique to everyone else!

I mean, I think the way I talk to people on my reading list and in my comms is "normal", "fun" and "relaxed", but I'm pretty sure it looks wanky, elitist, sarcastic, highfalutin, confusing and intimidating to others, just like their group jargon and rituals look confusing and intimidating to me.

And I think that most fans are lurkers, and most fans don't regularly discuss anything whatsoever in public. Maybe they have no fandom friends, or maybe they have a handful of people they socialize with, or a comm or a board they comment on once in a while.

We see the cliques, the subcultures, the social groups which you know it'd take so much time, energy and dedication to keep up with, and so many social skills to learn how to navigate, and we think "that's fandom, and I'm not really in fandom." But I think we just see the people who make a spectacle of themselves, and that they are a minority.

Most people don't participate in fests. Most people probably think that you, aquaeri, are one of the "real" fans. Here you are, participating in a discussion about fandom culture.

Anyway, that veered from the topic: I agree with you. I wish there would be more low-key fests and challenges, where people like us could add something and be a part of it, but not feel that anxiety causing pressure to conform or buy into anything.

[kaz]

Oh wow, *thank you*. I'd only seen the fringes of this debacle (as you can probably guess from my post, I don't participate in Yuletide and try to ignore the dialogue around it as much as possible so it won't hurt so much), so when you talked about the ableism I went "huhwhat?" and went looking at your journal. I am so glad I did because I had no idea this was going on.

Also:

Or as they say: merricatk does not feel empathy, so deserves no empathy.

This? This is a fucking HORRIBLE thing to say to someone. I am actually sitting here shaking with rage over it. Of course, most people probably don't have my history with having seen claims that they have no empathy used to discount people as monsters, less than human, undeserving of full human rights, again and again and again - most recently against my brother in order to take his daughter away from him which is why I am just a little bit angry here, but this is a common thread throughout autism rights dialogue and probably to a lesser extent talk about neuroatypicality in general. It ties in with the whole "people with mental illnesses are being selfish!" thing which, uh, we see right here. Which is to say, that kind of statement (apart from being, you know, HORRIBLE) is massively, massively loaded in an ableist way.

I. I just. Why.

[elf]

I think the mods could not have anticipated the way the discussion flared up.

I don't think they could've anticipated the details of the current discussions, but they could've known (hell, I knew) that the wank would eventually hit, and it would be shaped thusly:

Random anti-OTW: OTW is evil and trying to take over all of fandom by moving Yuletide!
Non-BNF but active fans: OTWho? Yuletide is whatwherenow?
Anti-OTW crowd: THEY'RE STEALING YULETIDE!!!
Non-BNF: What happens to my stories, which were happy on the nice isolated YT archive?
AO3 spokesperson: They'll get moved to shiny new servers and get lots of company.
Non-BNF: What if I don't want company?
Anti-OTW: YUR STORIES WILL BE ASSIMILATED! COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! PLAGIARISM! OUTINGS AND LAWYERS AND WANKAGE OH MY!
AO3 Spokesperson: You have the option of hiding your identity, or (sigh) removing stories.
AO3 Supporters: Pulling stories is cowardly and shameful and icky and fandom won't like you anymore!
Anti-OTW: See? They've all drunk the kool-aid! Run! Run away fast!
Non-BNF: o.O ???

... and so on, leaving non-BNF confused and scared and annoyed as hell at all these people yelling about something she really doesn't want to deal with and wishes would go away.

Thing is, knowing that was coming ... I'm not sure anything could've been done about it. More public announcements would have invoked *early* wank by the anti-OTW crowd, and if that had hit *before* Yuletide, YT would've been even more troublesome to manage.

(Trying to drag this back to accessibility issues...)

I don't think AO3 could have done any more useful outreach to avoid anxieties; they can't know who's going to be bothered by the move without doing big, loud, prominent announcements--which would just invoke more wank earlier. I don't know that they can do much to mitigate people's worries; YT has to move, and no moving solution is going to work for everyone, for countless individual reasons.

I would like to see those who are upset/unhappy with the move treated with more consideration. I don't think inevitability is an excuse for rudeness, and I don't like the "suck it up" message that's being thrown at some of the objectors.

There's a difference between "we can't make any changes to accommodate your needs/wants" and "you should be happy with what you've got, or at least shut up about it." And I think there's too much of the latter going around.

[noracharles]

That's a very accurate condensed dramatization of what happened, I think :-)

Well, they could have predicted that wank and drama was going to happen, because wank and drama always happens, especially with a big thing involving many people. But as you say, if they had talked about it earlier, it would just have happened earlier.

I don't think any of the official communication from yuletide was bad or lacking, or that yuletide or AO3 should have done more outreach. The problem wasn't either of them, it was the supporters and the deliberate spreaders of misinformation and rumor, and their clash.

My aim with this post is both to raise the consciousness in people in general, so maybe next time they won't be so fast to start slinging around terms like irrational and insane, but instead try to show some empathy, even when they have no sympathy for someone who feels confused and overwhelmed and is reacting emotionally, and to give mods of future fests a bit to think about re enlisting helpful supporters to answer questions.

[sheafrotherdon]

Thank you for this very thought-provoking essay.

[noracharles]

Thank you for reading it :-)

[anjak_j]

Here via sheafrotherdon

I want to say thank you to you for this awesome essay. It's not too often that someone writes about ableist privilege when it comes to mental health.

All I get from the comments by those with privilege in the linked posts is that they're only willing to make accommodations for people to the extent that it doesn't harsh their fandom squee. The minute someone with a social anxiety issue brought on by a fandom fest airs that particular concern, all pretence of decency goes out of the window.

[noracharles]

Thank you very much :-)

I think you're right about that - that's the way it usually is with privilege. I'm soaking in privilege myself, and I recognize the dynamic from both sides. I think that kaz also has a very good point: the way words about mental health are misused makes it difficult for people to take others at their word sometimes. So it's not necessarily deliberate bashing of people with anxiety, it's erasure of people with anxiety. Both bad, but different offenses ;-)

[hebrew-hernia.livejournal.com]

Here via sheafrotherdon (and have nooo idea whether that html tag is going to work; apologies if it doesn't).

I have some pretty severe mental health issues and I've found fandom to be a really good way to make social contacts when I'm not otherwise capable of doing so, and to supplement those I have "in real life." As someone with mental health issues, I want to thank you for bringing these links together and bringing these issues into the spotlight so eloquently.

I've definitely found myself grateful not to have participated in yuletide as all of this has started to happen. One of the things that I find to be really difficult is searching out information related to a general topic that has produced wank -- for example, the yuletide move to AO3. I am the non-BNF from elf's comment, with the exception that I haven't participated in yuletide before so this doesn't really affect me except as it relates to my nascent interest in accessibility issues. (I say "nascent" because I've only recently accepted the disability label for myself.)

And this might be out of line because you've frozen the thread, but I just want to say: I also really appreciate what you said to saraht. I really admire and appreciate the way you addressed her comment.

[noracharles]

Thank you very much for telling me. Knowing that I am making a difference to someone makes this all worth it. Thank you also for coming out publicly: It's terrifying, but if we don't tell the world that we are here, the world will continue to pretend that we are not.

I'm new to this whole modding thing. Usually I let people say whatever they want to, and then defend my opinions as best I can. I'm not sure about the etiquette, but I think it's pretty clear that you are talking about my modding, not arguing with saraht about the banned topic, so thank you very much. I appreciate that! Restricting speech disquiets me, but I also believe in the value of safe spaces. I am very glad that you think I made the right judgment call.

[sqbr]

I am unfortunately not feeling up to making any intelligent commentary on this post right now, but as a neurotypical disabled person try and keep an eye out for this sort of thing yet totally missed this interpretation of the whole mericatk... thing. *ponders*

[noracharles]

It's easy to miss. I think most people honestly read "emotionally unstable" and "all this is nothing but my feelings" as "These are my opinions about foo, let me argue for them without a shred of logic."

[vjs2259]

I have been following this discussion, lurking away, and just wanted to say that I appreciate the topic and this post.

[noracharles]

Thank you :-)

[secondsilk]

This is an interesting post and a topic that deserves careful consideration. I have not been following the debate and doing so would probably upset the careful hold I have on my mood at the moment. I hadn't considered the difficultly that I have with fests (Yuletide twice now as well as many others) anything other than my own flakiness and laziness, so knowing that social pressure and guilt are general circumstances that can and do affect others, and are things which mods are aware of and can manage makes me feel a little better, (and a little bit more in need of a sit down deep and meaningful discussion with myself).

(Not that I don't feel a sense of pressure to do Yuletide and to be able to do Yuletide. Likewise Remix (and, differently, NaNo). That I'm not "really" in fandom/contributing to fandom if I don't. That I need a "real" reason to not participate, not just "it makes me anxious, and I'll feel bad when I inevitably fail".)

People can be horrible sometimes and it always kind of amazes me. Especially online where you can reread and edit your comments before you post. But maybe people for whom receiving replies to comments is not an anxiety causing event in and of itself are able to take greater risks/pay less careful attention to what they say and how they say it.

Don't think I haven't re-read this comment and edited it half a dozen times. :-)

[noracharles]

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and perspective. It helps me very much to know, as you say, that many people have these ambivalent feelings about participating in fests... I want to, I'm scared to, I should not feel stressed about this, other people can do this, why isn't it fun when it should be fun

I participated in a fest for the first time ever last year: remixredux09. I really liked the way musesfool ran it:
- Multiple reassurances that yes, you can drop out, the sky won't fall, but you must tell me if you drop out
- If you fill out the form wrong, the sky won't fall, just fix it and send me the correct version (I did fill it out wrong, and got a very nice and soothing reply that it was OKAY)
- Remember that this is not a gift exchange; the remixee doesn't have to like it, just write what you want to write

And of course the basic premise of remix works for me, that I don't have to come up with a plot if I can't! However I remix the fic, as long as it fulfills the minimum word count, it's OKAY.

So that meant that while it was stressful, yes, in an ordinary deadlines and will-anyone-like-this and did-I-read-all-the-rules and will-I-be-able-to-log-in-when-I-have-to-post way, it was also a lot of fun, and I think it made a difference in my enthusiasm for reading all the fic that I felt that I was a part of the remix community.

Still, it might not be a good fest for people who have a hard time contacting strangers, because if you do find out that you can't complete the fic, or you filled out something wrong, then you do have to contact the mod. I don't know what'll happen next time, when the AO3 will have the fest hosting thingy done. It might be possible to have an automated fest check-in, like the check-ins a lot of the big bangs have, so doing nothing automatically tells the mod that you've defaulted and a pinch hitter is needed.

[kiwisue]

Here from metafandom's delicious links.

Thank you for the breath of fresh air.

[noracharles]

Thank you for reading :-)

[rhoda]

What kiwisue said. This post, as well as the comments, have made my day.

[noracharles]

Thank you :-)

[wishfulclicking]

This is a good post.

I've read both the post on access_fandom and I've followed some of the discussion regarding the AO3 move and Yuletide. I definitely agree that the mods are doing a great job on making it as stress free as possible. If, like you mentioned, it became more of a rule that people with questions were directed to the faq or a mod directly answered their questions, things would probably run smoother.

I've seen fests where guilt was often tossed around and it made me uncomfortable but, thankfully, the challenges I've been involved in have all had excellent mods.

As someone who deals with social anxiety, I've had to adjust how I deal with my internet time, and I haven't always made the right decision at first. Nanowrimo sent me into fits the first year, this year was a bit better, and I had to drop out of two different challenges. It was upsetting for me because I hate not finishing things but the mods were never horrible towards me. (If they had negative feelings about any of it, none of it leaked publicly so I think they did a good job.)

But this is why I avoid exchanges. I get upset enough at just writing fic for challenges, let alone fic for someone else. I wonder how much of the 'energy' surrounding this yuletide stuff is because yuletide is a fan exchange challenge. The whole 'gift' nature of the challenge has been popping up a lot in these discussions.

Running a fest in mind for people with social anxiety isn't catering as much as it is running the best fest possible. Having clear rules, due dates, and not trying to make people feel guilty if they can't produce the fic/art/vid/mix in time. Also, having enough pinch hitters for those people who do produce the fanwork in time, get something in exchange. That's just good modding.


This seems to have run long, but in sum: if someone doesn't feel comfortable with their story being in yuletide, they can orphan or even delete their stories if that's what they want to do. The mods allow it (I think the only repercussion is not being able to participate in yuletide in the following years but if the person is uncomfortable with AO3, I wouldn't see how they would want to anyhow) and it's not the other members of yuletide place to jump on the person.

(I'm not addressing the specifics of merrickat because I didn't read their post because by the time they had posted I was done with reading stuff about AO3/Yuletide unless they were pieces of fiction. I don't know how the flow of information came but I assumed the information about the move was readily available but I follow metafandom closely and I know not everyone does that.)

[noracharles]

Thank you :-)

I hear you on the guilt for not finishing, and I think you're right: the guilt is worse when it's a gift exchange, and other participants are more likely to add to the guilt.

And you've perfectly summed up one of the points I was trying to get at: accessibility makes the fests better for all participants :-D

I'm glad to hear you had such good mods in the challenges you dropped out of, people like them make fandom a better environment.

[doire]

Here via metafandon, though I have been in the friges of the wank.

I'm anxious about putting my ideas out there. I write posts and then don't hit submit, I leave pages open promising myself that I'll post that comment and fiction stays on my hard drive. (Actually it mostly gets deleted.)

I use Yuletide to make myself post; I make a promise and I will keep it. Thanks to its rules I have three pieces out there, which might not have existed if late defaulting wasn't frowned on.

[noracharles]

It's great that the motivation you get from yuletide helps you post :-D
I feel the same, I rarely write fic, and almost never finish it, but taking part in a challenge helps me do it.

For me there is a huge difference between feeling that "If I don't finish this, it's bad, I'm breaking the rules and won't be able to take part again, and my giftee will have to make do with a hastily written pinch hit," and "If I don't finish this, people will yell at me and I'll have to deal with unpleasant confrontations as well as see people bad mouthing me."

Of course, not all challenges are suitable for participants who can't deal with confrontation, and that's fine. Not every activity has to be accessible to everyone. But I think it's a shame when the mods of a fest work hard to make a fest low pressure and relaxed for everyone, and some supporters then spoil the effort the mods have gone to.

[eggcrack]

As somebody who has issues with sociality and everything that comes with it, I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this post. I was very uncomfortable with the way merricatk was condemned for reacting the way she did (I can understand where she's coming from anxiety-wise, so seeing her mocked for that made me feel unwanted and unwelcome), and I think you did a great job of pointing out just why it was problematic. So thank you.

[noracharles]

Thank you very much :-)

[zana16]

Thank you for this post. You articulated something I couldn't get to gel into coherence, and that furthermore I didn't feel up to posting myself because I don't have the energy to respond to the wank. And perhaps I am projecting my own social anxiety onto you, but from my perspective it is very courageous of you to both post this and continue to engage with those who have differing opinions -- so thank you.

[noracharles]

Thank you very much :-)

I did feel anxious about posting something like this, and worried that the emails would be overwhelming for me to deal with. But then after thinking about it for a while, I found a way to express what I meant coherently, instead of just venting, and that made it easier.

And then it turned out that everyone is being really kind and polite, both the people who sympathize with me and the ones who don't, so it's been a good experience!

[sasha_feather]

This post has been included in a linkspam at access_fandom. Thank you!

[noracharles]

I saw! Thank you for linking :-)

[linkspam_mod]

This post has been added to a linkspam round up..

(frozen) (no subject)

[nacbrie]

This is a very interesting and clear post. I can't say much about the rabid anti-OTW folk, but to the rabid pro-OTW folk I would ask they bear in mind that many of us are reserving judgment. It's not that we don't appreciate what OTW are doing, but any activity which raises the profile of fandom brings a risk to the whole of fandom. The stakes are potentially huge, and many of the fears are grounded in historical precedent. Some need a little bit more convincing - not from the OTW fans, but from the actions of OTW itself. (More thoughts on my journal, didn't want to clog yours.)

Excellent post, anyhow.

(frozen) (no subject)

[noracharles]

Please don't take the OTW discussion to this journal. My post is about how to conduct a discussion without being ableist, and while it was directly inspired by the current yuletide move debate, it's not about the OTW.

[pseudo_tsuga]

As someone who is just realizing she has anxiety issues and barely starting to deal with it, your comments throughout this whole things have been very helpful. I'm adding you to my reading list, if that's okay. :D

[noracharles]

Thank you, I'm really glad my comments have been useful! I'm honored to be added to your reading list :-)