International fandom, again.

[noracharles]

Someone uses a common figure of speech, referring to corporate headquarters by the name of the city the HQ is in, while criticizing a recent management decision.

Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.

The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.

Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."

I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.

First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?

When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.

I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.

That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.

It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.

The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".

The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)

The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.

In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.

Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.

He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!

I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.

I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!

All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.

And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.

ETA: Marina, on russophobia

Comments

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

And I have to say, some people are so ready to jump on ESL fans that I've been asked if I'm not a native writer of English. Also, after Baywatch, who believes American-made shows are 'insular product'? Advertising is the 'killer app' of America, whether it's shortform, long form or 'long-con'.

[noracharles]

They've asked you if you're not a native writer of English? That's grotesque. I can understand that it can be relevant to ask in certain circumstances, like if you're going to help someone out with grammar, style, register, colloquialisms, regionalisms, etc, and you need to know what knowledge you can take for granted - but asking you, with your fluent command of English, it can only be code for "Are you one of us?"

LOL, yeah, Baywatch was a global phenomenon! I'm amazed that it got so popular they were even showing a face cropped version for the conservative Muslim market. The dramatic quality really wasn't good enough for that imo.

Advertising is the 'killer app' of America

Ha! Well put.

And now, I shall enjoy a very expensive, very delicious bio goat cheese I slogged through a foot of snow to buy, in my warm, cozy, electrified home. I'm feeling very rich and privileged right now.

We had a freak snow fall today, and lots of people are trapped in endless traffic 3 - 4 hours after they got off work, and some are stranded on the couches of kind strangers in the cities were they work, far from home.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Actually, it was a beta thinking my word choices were odd. Now, I'd thought its popularity was through the 'illegal dishes' in the conservative countries.

Goat cheese! I put up some pictures of my snow.

[laughingrat]

It is nice to see you on the internets!

[noracharles]

Thank you! :-D
It's good to be back.

[lakrids404]

Then I got some feedback from an old man

Heh... when i read this line, the first thought I had, is that me she is talking about? and did she just call me old!. Because it's of course all about me!!. And then I read further...ouch

Speaking of kink have you stumbled over Buffyverse anonymous kink meme?

We danes also take ownership over artists / arts. Just take a look youtube videos, with for example danish pop group, who is slightly popular. You will see many comments, who makes a point, in english, of the fact of the group is danish.

[noracharles]

LOL. Well, you are a man, and you did send me feedback for that fic, and wonderful fb it was :-D
This guy actually told me he was old and identified as such. His age should not have mattered to me, but, well, I was being stupid.

Thank you for the link! Why aren't there any Buffy/Spike or Willow/Oz fics? ;_;

You're right, there are definitely possessive Danes who feel they should have a say in if and how other people enjoy art made by Danes. I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for people being proud of their culture, and liking it when others appreciate a product of their culture.

What I have a problem with is when people become so proprietary and skeptical that they feel they have the right or responsibility to police who gets to enjoy a freely available commercial product, and in what manner. I feel I should make it clear that I'm not talking about resisting cultural appropriation, which I believe in; I'm talking about xenophobic policing of who gets to enjoy artistic/commercial expressions intended by their creators to be enjoyed by anyone who wants to.

And as you say, a lot of Danes like to be jerks like that :-(
Take for example Riget. I'd be the first to say "UR doing it rong" to the people who produced the Kingdom Hospital remake, because they cut everything that made the original funny and clever, and threw in a lot of flash and surrealism that detracted more than it added.

But a lot of people have told me that it's because the people who made Kingdom Hospital are Americans, and the viewers are Americans, Americans are fat and stupid and have bad taste and don't know what satire or sarcasm or irony is and eat cheese burgers every day, and by definition any time an American enjoys a Danish TV show or movie they will be doing it wrong.

Luckily those hateful, prejudiced jerks mostly spew their opinions in Danish, and the many fans of Riget who don't speak Danish don't have to put up with them (much) in the fan forums they frequent.

[west_side]

Wow! Where did you see those discussions about othering of Russians? I've never stumbled upon them. But I can really see why they would easily put problems on the same plate as racism, which is baffling for the Westenrers.

[noracharles]

In my post I added some context for those not familiar with the background. The discussion where I saw the comment that offended me sprawled over more than one journal, and is linked to from this fandom_wank post about russophobia.

I'm not friends with and don't tend to read the journals of xenophobes, but I've come across a lot of little nasty jibes at Russia and Russians, especially connected to the LJ owners. Little things that most people probably don't even register, but they add up. I'm afraid I don't have any links.

Most of it is a result of ignorance and privilege, not outright malice. People who don't understand why the "In Soviet Russia..." meme can be funny in certain contexts when used in certain ways, but that doesn't mean it's always funny or appropriate. People who aren't embarrassed to show off their prejudice, ignorance, Othering and tendendy to view other cultures and nations as monolithic, because it doesn't even occur to them that the people they are talking to might not be Westerners.

[noracharles]

Dunno if you've seen this: Marina on russophobia

[nojojojo]

Here via Metafandom. This is interesting and thought-provoking, and I very much take your point about the Othering of non-US/Canadians being a problem. But I don't understand this part:

Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."

I was repulsed and horrified.

I'm sorry, but what is repulsive/horrifying about this? I truly don't get it. As you said, it's relevant to consider the interaction between actual ethnicity and perceived ethnicity. So this seems a valid observation to me.

Disclosure: I'm an African-American woman, if that clarifies my incomprehension at all.

[noracharles]

Yesterday, I went back and reread the post where the discussion I mention took place. There were many new comments, and I had to laugh because there was some serious xenophobia apologia and derailing going on, and I didn't even care, except in a being fascinated by a train-wreck kind of thing.

The particular comment repulsed and horrified me because it was from a would-be ally. They were clearly unaware of displaying their own privilege, and I did not expect a comment like that from someone like them.

In case you're not wondering why the comment was particularly horrifying, but more why it was horrifying at all, I'll break it down for you. I hope you'll be patient with me for saying some really obvious stuff I know you know, it's just so I can line it all up neatly.

The debate was about tension between Westerners and Easterners, and especially Americans and Russians. LJ users from the former Eastern Bloc are very tired of being simultaneously vilified and erased in English language LJ+clones journals.

In real life Slavs living in Germanic, Latin and Greek countries have to deal with a lot of racist shit. Some of them pass until they have to use their name, or reveal that they speak with an accent, but a lot of them don't. Europeans don't think white ethnic groups look alike.

The idea of white privilege is typical of melting pot societies, such as in the Americas. In Europe, there is no "white ethnic group", in Africa there is no "black ethnic group", in Asia there is no "Asian ethnic group". Yes, there is a complex kyriarchy, and some ethnic groups are "more like us" and some are "less like us" in any given country, and I certainly don't mean to dismiss or simplify that. But it remains incredibly America-centric to talk of "white privilege".

(And that's not even getting into the idea that all people who identify as Russian are white, or that only the white Russians are important enough to mention. They're not.)

On the internet we all look alike, so unless we identify ourselves as a member of an unprivileged group we get treated to everyone's unfiltered privileged shit, of the sort they wouldn't say if they were physically in a room with us.

So the Eastern European LJers were rightfully getting very, very tired of having Westerners, especially Americans, pretend like English language LJ+clones journals were only for Americans, and only Americans ever participated or lurked here.

This would-be ally, wanting to show their condemnation of xenophobia, and also put it into a bit of perspective, demonstrated very clearly that they were unable to grasp the idea that English language LJ+clones is for people from all over the world, not for North Americans only. The discussion was not about ethnic tension within North American countries, it was about erasing and silencing Eastern Europeans, and she was actively doing that very thing.

I hope that was an okay explanation, but feel free to ask for more clarification. I'm a Westerner myself, though, and don't have the best grasp on all this.

ETA: Sorry, I overlooked this part:
As you said, it's relevant to consider the interaction between actual ethnicity and perceived ethnicity. So this seems a valid observation to me.

Relevant for Canada and the U.S. Valid for Canada and the U.S.

[katta]

I'm not the original poster, but I'm Scandinavian, so I thought I could bring my own view into this (which aren't necessarily the same as noracharles's views). A problem with that statement is that it specifically sidelines the issue being discussed when it's already been pointed out that the issue in question is often sidelined. The reply to "I'd like to talk about X, because I feel it's being neglected for Y" shouldn't be, "Yes, but you have to admit that X is less important than Y." (And yes, I'm very aware that the same things happen - and often! - when people do try to discuss skincolour aspects of racism.)

The "Russia" and "Kremlin" jokes regarding the LJ ownership makes me very uncomfortable, and I think they read slightly different for me (again, I don't want to speak for noracharles) because I live relatively close to Russia. "Russia" (and "Poland") in the Swedish political discussion is tied into discussions on illegal immigrants, maids, seasonal workers, trafficking, etc. An actual argument made against Sweden joining the EU was that it'd mean Eastern Europeans using our welfare - "social tourism" they called it. (Amazingly, this didn't happen. /sarcasm)

There are certain aspects of racism and xenophobia that are more apparent to Americans, especially when it comes to skincolor. (When I was a kid, most of the black or East Asian children in town were either biracial or adopted, leading to very different kind of issues.) But there are other aspects that are more apparent to Europeans. Russophobia is among those aspects, as is antiziganism. Both perspectives are important to discuss. Neither kind should be used to derail a discussion about the other kind. (Though, yeah, I've been guilty of it too.)


And more a general reply-to-the-post than reply-to-you, I've made a couple of posts that are semi-relevant to this one:
About being an ESL fan.
About racial relationships in Sweden. (There are things I'd change about that post, being two and a half years smarter than when I wrote it, but it's still a hint.)

[katta]

And oops, it seems noracharles answered the comment herself while I was articulating my reply.

[crevanfox]

This is a very well thought out post, and it makes a lot of good points. I have only one thing with which I take (slight) issue. You repeatedly lump Canada and America together. You speak of the melting pots of our cultures-but that's only the States. Canada is multicultural, it's enshrined in our laws. We try to celebrate different cultures and in fact are the most ehtnically diverse country on the planet (by percentage of population)

This is not to say that there aren't racists or racism in Canada, of course there is. I can think of no country that is free from it, nor any person who does not have some innate xenophobia (which must be overcome).

I can't say there are no Canadians making slurs against Russians, although we do have a considerably less hostile attitude toward them than the Americans, who still hold old Cold War grudges, but I do not think my people are making up a significant portion of the biogtry, yet we are held just as accountable for what is largely an American problem.

Too often people confuse The States and Canada, as though we are interchangable. I can assure you we are a different people. My culture in Ontario, is different then what you would find in Nunavut, or British Columbia, or the Maritimes, and it is certainly different from what you would find in America. We are not the same people.



Please excuse any mistakes or bad phrasing in my post, it's very early here.

I really need to get an openID...

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm... I commented below (anonymous), and briefly touched on being bothered by the melting pot comment, but I admittedly wasn't sure of what to say on the matter. This was said quite well, I think.

-Pearlsie (from the Maritimes, btw!) (pearly_dreams on LJ)

[noracharles]

Thank you very much :-)

You are right that Canada and the U.S. are not the same, and I am sorry for implying that they are interchangeable. I meant to say, in this particular context, the kind of behavior I am complaining about is more likely to come from Americans and Canadians. Other native English speakers also to a lesser degree like to exercise their anglophone privilege, and either ignore the existence of ESL and EFL participants and lurkers, or exhibit more or less aggressive, xenophobic behavior.

It's interesting the way you contrast Canadian and U.S. American ideals regarding the melting pot. I don't think that the melting pot is as much a political ideal in the U.S. as it used to be. People are more able and willing to maintain and celebrate their own ethnic heritage, and respect the ethnic heritage of others, and I think most officials institutions are (at least on paper) committed to the fruit salad ideal.

But let's not discuss that right now (it's a fascinating subject, and I'd really like to get into it some other time). The idea of macro "ethnicities" may be more typical for Americans than for Canadians, but the fact of the matter is, I have witnessed North America-centrism that ignores and dismisses all LJ+clones users from outside North America, and, which is more usual from Canadians, all LJ+clones users who are not native English speakers.

To put it very bluntly: U.S. American xenophobes think the anglophone internet is only for Americans. Canadian xenophobes think the anglophone internet is only for Americans and the Common Wealth.

[kaz]

A lot of these things haven't happened to me, probably because I started in online fandom later (I think) and I'm not actually in America-centric fandoms that often, but I'm really horrified to hear they happened to you. Posting in the wrong time zone - WTF.

I can, however, really agree that fandom often gets very US/possibly also Canada-centric, to the detriment of non-US fans. A discussion I remember about this recently was about how some fandoms (in this case it was vidding fandom, I believe) are very centred on a particular big con where all the important and interesting things happen and anyone who wants to be anyone goes there... and that this is of course completely dismissive of fans outside North America who would have to shell thousands of Euros/other large amount of the currency of their choice to get there.

God, I'm trying to get this comment into a semblance of order and get some more examples out there, but it's difficult because I've never really talked about these things before. And my brain keeps going "but those are just LITTLE things!" when I think about things like use of the term "grammar/spelling/etc. nazi" (when, you know, I'm German and "nazi" is a friendship-ending insult for me) or assumptions about availability of canon, or silly things like the whole "Fifth Amendment!" or "Freedom of Speech!", or Veterans' Day, or...

And of course I'm still relatively well off, because I lived part of my childhood in the US and am therefore both a sort-of native speaker (although I do have an accent in speech nowadays) and get more of the US-specific stuff than someone who's never been there.

ETA: Incidentally, I see all of this a lot more and a lot more blatantly in *ism discussions - I only realised just how much I'd been used to the /specifically American/ feminism discussions when I ran across a German-speaking feminist blog and suddenly saw things being talked about that were relevant to me but a complete nonissue in English-speaking feminist discussions. And then I realised that somehow I'd come away from those discussions with the unconscious belief that feminism in the US was at the forefront of feminism worldwide and feminist movements in the other countries were lagging "behind" somehow, and that all the interesting feminist discussions must be happening in English. And... I know where that belief came from. This is less to do with fandom and more to do with feminist blogs, but I *do* see this kind of attitude in fandom as well.

[noracharles]

All of these things haven't happened to me personally either, but have happened to friends and list/comm members. No one told me off for posting in the wrong time zone, but I saw people being told off or ignored for it, so I adjusted my behavior. I am a native English speaker, so again, the EFL hate "only" harms me second hand.

As you say, they are little things, and they are things not directed at me, but little things add up to real barriers for participation, and we are all human beings and will still be hurt by casual indifference and cruelty not aimed or intended for us personally.

The examples you give of the "little things" are very good. Those are the things I personally find really grating in my everyday online life, not being of one of the vilified ethnicities myself.

Good point on the *ism discussions. I have recently seen a wave of inclusive feminism trying to break this insular "only white, middle-class, cis, temporarily abled and American women are women" thing, but discussion of feminist issues mainly relevant outside of America tend to fizzle and die quickly in the anglophone corner of the internet I hang out in.

[(Anonymous)]

A discussion I remember about this recently was about how some fandoms (in this case it was vidding fandom, I believe) are very centred on a particular big con where all the important and interesting things happen and anyone who wants to be anyone goes there... and that this is of course completely dismissive of fans outside North America who would have to shell thousands of Euros/other large amount of the currency of their choice to get there.


You know... North American is huge. And a lot of North Americans were/are ALSO unable to attend those cons. It's not personal. They're not doing it just to be xenophobic or dismissive of international fans. But a con, you know, a con must take place SOMEWHERE, if you want to have a con. Anywhere it is located, there will be large numbers of people in the world who are unable to attend.

Out of all the cons going on all over the world at any given time, there's about one, maybe two, I could make it to, IF I could afford it, and I can't. And I'm from the US. I have been unable to make it to several cons that were only an hour away.

And yes, I had to listen to people going on and on about things I wasn't there to see. And no, it's not fair. But neither does it mean that other people simply don't care about whether or not your were able to make it. But cons have to happen somewhere and that somewhere tends to be wherever there are enough fans with enough money and time to bother throwing one.

Here from metafandom - don't have openID

[(Anonymous)]

I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!

This. This, so much. Thank-you for writing this - I've been fortunate in my fandom experiences and not had to deal with (or see) such silly appropriating and nationalistic behaviour. Of course, it helps that my common fandoms tend to have numerous Brits in it, I think, along with Americans & Canadians, so the 'correct' English thing kinda disappears. And I've yet to see some kind of discrimination or derogatory comments or behaviour towards someone who ESL or from somewhere other than the places mentioned.

And I also want to say that I love you for specifying US Americans and Canadians. Too often, it seems to me, Canadians are a little invisible (again, could just be my fandoms). And also, when reading posts of this sort targeting Americans, I think we tend to mentally exempt ourselves from it, even though we do have so much in common. (When you said 'melting pot cultures' and included Canada I'll admit it - I felt an instinctive bit of protest. 'We're a quilt! A patchwork! Not a melting pot!' *eyeroll* But really, who knows?)

-Pearly_Dreams on LJ

Re: Forgot something!

[(Anonymous)]

*headdesk* Forgot to conclude properly. I thank you for writing this because it needs to be said, and such behaviour is inexcusable. I didn't state that as plainly as I intended in my above post.

-Pearlsie

Re: Here from metafandom - don't have openID

[noracharles]

Thank you very much.

You are right to correct me on "melting pot". I understand, and very much appreciate, that you all prioritize being a quilt :-D

I should have taken care to be more truthful and respectful, and talked about how the colonial and multi-cultural history of Canada (and other countries) and the social kierarchy have led to the formation of macro "ethnicities", people who identify primarily as white, for example, and don't necessarily know of the ethnic heritage of their forefathers.

It is my personal experience that Americans, (I wouldn't know about Canadians), have a real hard time distinguishing ethnic facial features, and most white multi-generational Americans I know and have talked to about this identify as "Heinz 57". People of color have been even harder hit by this, not only by voluntarily intermarrying between ethnicities, but also forced by white perception into an ethnic monolith.

So it would be wrong to say that Americans or Canadians as nations have or aim to have melting pot cultures, (though some individuals do work to achieve this,) but I think it's fair to say that the U.S. and Canada have become "stew" nations. (A kind of cannibalistic metaphor, but I still like it.)

Fashionably late from metafandom

[eeveee]

This is possibly OT since you specified fandoms with the origin in the US/Canada, but I'd still like to say it: after nine years in various anime fandoms - seven of them on LJ - I have never once felt ostracised because of my nationality and occasionally lacking command of English, and I have never seen anyone take that attitude to others. My experience =/= that of all ESL anime fen, but I regularly see fans from all over the globe as active parts of the fandom and would never have guessed that this kind of attitude existed until I saw this post. (it is of course also an attitude that would be doubly cringeworthy in anime fandoms, but might be worth something relating to the issue of Anglo-American feelings of LJ/fandom ownership)

Re: Fashionably late from metafandom

[noracharles]

Thank you for sharing your experience :-)
I'm glad you've never had to deal with stuff like this, because no one should have to.