Nora Charles (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
noracharles) wrote2009-12-16 01:40 pm
noracharles) wrote2009-12-16 01:40 pm
Entry tags:
International fandom, again.
Someone uses a common figure of speech, referring to corporate headquarters by the name of the city the HQ is in, while criticizing a recent management decision.
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
Other people point out that in the context of the Othering of Russians and Russophobia by Westerners, especially U.S. Americans, going on in English language LJ/LJ off-shoot based circles, that particular metonymy can easily be read as an offensive and hurtful statement 1) lumping all Russians together as one homogeneous mass and 2) implying that corporate HQ is bad because it is Russian.
The person who offended Russians apologizes and changes her phrasing, the person who lumped all Americans together as one homogeneous mass also apologizes and changes her phrasing. All is good. People discuss the problem of Russophobia and general former Eastern Bloc phobia, and how they have personally been exposed to this ignorance, Othering, contempt and aggression.
Then a person whom I generally like and respect, and who has already apologized, quoted this: "Sometimes it seems that all those debates about cultural appropriation only take into account skincolor differences," and answered: "Well, you have to take into account that skin is such a visible marker; my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names."
I was repulsed and horrified. I am not out to attack the person who said it, I'm sure it was not a deliberate offense, and she's already apologized, but her comment has inspired me to discuss this.
First a disclaimer: Racism in Canada and the U.S. is a serious problem, and discussing it is important and legitimate. In the melting pot societies of Canada and the U.S., it in many circumstances makes sense to divide people into macro-"ethnicities" like White, Black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American, and when discussing racism in Canada and the U.S. it is relevant to examine the interplay between a person's actual ethnicity/ies and their perceived ethnicity/macro-"ethnicity". Okay?
When you are in a discussion about tensions between cultures and prejudices against certain nationalities, and how Westerners (hint: especially Canadians and U.S. Americans) are generally ignorant, dismissive and fearful of people from certain countries, don't reframe the discussion to be about your own nation and culture, erasing and dismissing the actual people from actual different countries than your own whom you are currently talking to.
I mean, don't ever do that, but especially don't ever do that in those particular circumstances. It makes you look like a dumbass. An incredibly culturally arrogant, nationalistically solipsistic dumbass.
That whole thing was mainly about the possessive attitude Western anglophones have towards LJ and its off-shoots, and how the fact that crappy service is being given by a non-American company rather than the crappy service from an American company we're all used to is met with shock and horror, and how people resent it very much when the non-American company does its job and improves service for the many users the previous American crappy service providers used to almost totally neglect, and how there's been a recent upswing in the tradional Russophobia of Western anglophone LJ users who feel their privileged position as the moral owners of LJ slipping.
It reminds me very much of my experiences in English language U.S./Canadian media based fandom. I've previously written about how I've witnessed fans who couldn't or wouldn't successfully pass as native English speakers (or who were the wrong=not U.S. American kind of native English speakers) be harassed out.
The The Sentinel fandom was very rough. I did not want to be mauled, so I did not speak up about where I live, and I was conscious of the time of the day I posted, because there were people who would simply not reply, or who would make pointed comments, if you were in the wrong time zone = posted "at night".
The Due South fandom was better. The fandom made a point of being welcoming to both U.S. Americans and Canadians! (Not any-native-language-but-English Canadians or Americans, though, obs. Eew.)
The Buffy the Vampire Slayer fandom was the best yet. There were many different mailing lists, so it was easier to self-sort into one with an agreeable social climate, or maybe just to not feel as emotionally attached to one single mailing list. It was a large and vibrant fandom, with more than one popular pairing. Kink was regarded as something fun and positive, not dirty and furtive. The show was on in many different countries simultaneously, and screen cappers and recappers/transcribers worked tirelessly to keep us all up to date and able to participate.
In many ways I felt that I had come home to my fandom. I was no longer a fandom or internet newbie. I felt that the show was "mine", having sprung out of my generation, being about fannish/pop-culture obsessed women, and tying into the international grrl-power movement. I finished and published a fic for the first time ever! My fic was about a break-up, and drew a lot on my own experiences as a bisexual woman with a tendency to cover how introverted I am by talking a lot, but not about my feelings. I'd like to think I grounded it in canon and that it was in-character, but it was definitely my fic, written for love of a fandom and characters I felt were my people.
Then I got some feedback from an old man who had read my fic from a perspective of femdom sadomasochism and D/s. I was flattered and pleased that the kinky content in my fic had worked for him, but I was creeped out by the objectifying way he talked about my grrl-power icons, offended that he found it appropriate to tell me his explicit sexual fantasies even after I asked him not to, and I felt that he was rather missing the point of BtVS. I mentally positioned him on the outer fuzzy edges of the fandom, with me and my fannishness smack dab in the center, of course.
He was sorry to have offended me, and tried to make nice by telling me how flattered and pleased he was that foreigners like me were interested in and fannish about his culture's TV show. Oh hell no. OH HELL NO!
I'm not saying queering the text trumps kinky pr0n. I'm not saying the international grrl-power movement trumps the obviously America-centric and America-based nature of the show. I'm not saying my generation trumps his generation. I'm not saying my personal identification with the characters trumps his fetishistic objectification of the characters. I'm sorry I ever mentally labeled myself as a genuine fan and him as a fringe fan, my fannish expression as right and his as wrong.
I'm saying that you do not get to declare moral ownership of a product/artistic expression based on sharing the nationality of its creator and "graciously" allow people of other nationalities to engage fannishly with it!
All these years later, and I'm still really butt-hurt over it. I've been dissed directly and indirectly for my ethnicity in fandom lots of times before and since, but that particular conversation still sticks out in my memory, probably because of my comfortable perception of myself as privileged for being "the right kind of fan". I was wrong to have that kind of attitude, and my fannish horizons have been expanded a lot since then. There are no right or wrong fans, and my attitude was as wrong-headed and prejudiced as his.
And privileging of the U.S. and/or Canada in international fandoms still is a huge hot button for me, as you can see.
ETA: Marina, on russophobia
Re: here via metafandom
My concern is that I don't think "white privilege", skin colour and related issues are irrelevant in Europe. However, that kind of racism isn't the same kind of racism as the prejudice faced by Slavic people and Eastern European people; therefore it's irrelevant to the original discussion in the same way that a discussion of sexism is irrelevant to a discussion about racism. Not because it doesn't exist but because it's not what the conversation is about. But I object to the premise that skin colour doesn't matter in Europe, anywhere in Europe. It really does.
Re: here via metafandom
I completely didn't read it like that. I read it as being "discrimination based an ethnicity on top of based on skin color", meaning just because someone would have white privilege in the US does not mean that's the case in Europe. A lot of people that would just be called 'white' in the US are actually quite obviously treated as 'non-white/native' in European countries. Examples being Polish people, Italians, Russians, other Eastern Europeans, depending on which country in Europe you are in. Thus "my Russian and Ukrainian friends can often benefit from white privilege right up until they open their mouths or sign their names" does not necessarily apply in Europe.
And yes, discrimination based on race as identified by skin color is certainly a problem over here as well, and I hope no-one denies that. However, certainly the worst racism especially in Germany is against people from Turkey and the the area I am from against Italians. Whether people from these countries have a different skin color is certainly debatable as quite a few have very light skin. But they still look 'different' to a lot of people and ou will find people much more likely to respond well to someone from Asia or Africa than from the country next door, Poland or Italy.
Re: here via metafandom
I meant to say that referring to the concept of white privilege demonstrated how the commenter was speaking from a North American perspective. It's certainly an issue in European countries that people are judged by the color of their skin, but depending on the individual country (the UK being more of a melting pot than Denmark), perceived ethnicity is a lot less likely to be "white".
I'd say that in Denmark, darker skinned people in interaction with people they don't know are treated worse than lighter skinned people as a general rule, but the average person is likely to have an idea if a dark brown person they interact with is African-American, Tamil, Ghanaian or Somali, for example, at least subconsciously, and those ethnic groups are not lumped together, and they are not ranked together when it comes to the general respect the average xenophobe feels for them. Even in police reports, witnesses generally have a much more definite idea of a perpetrator's ethnicity than just the color of their skin.
Re: here via metafandom
I see your point and agree; the American model of 'race' in society is very different from the European model and of course all of it is made more complicated by the fact that there is no monolithic European model. *g* I have to say I do find the concept of "white privilege" at least provisionally useful in thinking about the UK but I can see that it might be less useful in other countries that don't share the UK's particular colonial history. Thanks again for the clarification. I am conscious of having somewhat derailed the discussion here so I'll leave it at that.
Re: here via metafandom
I was aware that the UK was more of a melting pot than Denmark, but I was not aware of the extent. I'm glad to have learned something new.